Spencer & Jake from The Farm Upstream: EP27

Today’s episode comes to you from Jericho Vermont where we visit with Spencer Hardy and Jake Kornfeld of The Farm Upstream (https://www.thefarmupstream.com). They are friends who are just setting roots on this new farm and share how they've structured their business to grow collaboratively to support multiple households. 

Transcript

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Spencer Hardy (00:00:09):
I am Spencer Hardy.
Jake Kornfeld (00:00:10):
I'm Jake Kornfeld.
Spencer Hardy (00:00:12):
So, we're part of The Farm Upstream, it's a five member cooperative, growing vegetables, fruit, and native plants for our community in Jericho, Vermont.
Andy Chamberlin (00:00:30):
I'm your host, Andy Chamberlin, and I take you behind the scenes with growers who share their strategy for achieving the triple bottom line of sustainability. These interviews unravel how they're building their business to balance success across people, profits, and our planet. One ask I have for you is if you can leave a comment or write a review. There's a feature enabled right now called Fan Mail, so you can send a message via text to the podcast right from the link in the description. These come through as anonymous, so if you want to be known or would like me to reply, let me know who you are in the message. Give it a whirl, it's quick, easy, and free, and I'd love to hear from you. One of the latest emails I received reads, "A big shout-out to the Farmers Share podcast. I've been enjoying listening as I start the first seeds of the upcoming season." Thanks, Simone, great to hear you're kicking off the season with some inspiration from others.
(00:01:22):
Today's episode comes to you from Jericho, Vermont, where we visit with Spencer Hardy and Jake Kornfeld of the Farm Upstream. They're friends who are just setting roots on this new farm, and share how they've structured their business to grow collaboratively to support multiple households. They share a little bit of the struggles of setting up a new business with multiple friends all at the same time, and share their visions for where they'd like to go with this business to turn it into a successful business for the long game.
Spencer Hardy (00:01:55):
So, we are 2/5ths of The Farm Upstream, this is our second year on a piece of land in Jericho, we started farming together as a cooperative in 2021, on leased land, growing a couple wholesale crops on the evenings and weekends, and then looking for property. And now, we're here, and this is our scale-up year from a one-day-a-week farm stand to a 20 or 30-member CSA, and a full-season farm stand.
Jake Kornfeld (00:02:31):
CSA is at 42 members and growing, Spencer.
Spencer Hardy (00:02:35):
There you go.
Jake Kornfeld (00:02:37):
So, there you go. Yeah. I'm Jake Kornfeld, that's Spencer Hardy, the other three are doing various bits of childcare and education and things. So, we've been growing together since 2021, but have known each
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other for longer. I grew up with Spencer in the Upper Valley, and all of us had been farming before we started farming together. So, yeah, I've managed the Vermont Youth Conservation Corps Farm for the last six seasons, and grew on a bunch of different farms before that. My partner, Cory, was the vegetable manager at Bread and Butter Farm for a while, and Spencer's partner, Jack was...
Spencer Hardy (00:03:24):
Managed the Feast Farm in Montpelier for a few years, and had been farming in Virginia and California a little bit before that.
Jake Kornfeld (00:03:30):
Yeah. And then we snagged Tucker Andrews, or Tucker snagged us more accurately, probably two years ago. Tucker's been operating Bone Mountain Farm up in Bolton for the last seven years or so, and has been in this area for his whole life, and is a really talented grower, and cold called me three years ago just to say, hey, I'm getting tired of doing this by myself, do you have any interest in working together? And we knew each other through some friends, and we already had four of us in the business, and figured what's one more? And Tucker also had his eye on this farm, and so we joined forces to pull off this land purchase and step things up a little bit.
Spencer Hardy (00:04:22):
And then, in 2024, Tucker's farm in Bolton was devastated by some freak flooding in July, which sort of sped up the transition to him moving his operation to this new property, five miles away and out of the floodplain.
Jake Kornfeld (00:04:40):
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:04:41):
So, is he going to be doing much of anything over there or is it mostly over here now?
Jake Kornfeld (00:04:45):
I think nearly everything he's going to be doing in 2025 is going to be down here.
Andy Chamberlin (00:04:50):
Wow.
Jake Kornfeld (00:04:50):
So, he'll grow a couple of seed crops up there, he's got a tunnel up there that we'll use, but that field is pretty rough at this point. He's like, I've got to figure out how much work I want to do to put it back together because there's a river running through the field. Yeah, yeah, it's rough.
Andy Chamberlin (00:05:11):
So, it's not just like it's unpredictable, but it's unfarmable.
Spencer Hardy (00:05:15):
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The river moved, and now every time it rains more than an inch, there's water rushing through the field. And it's a gravel bed.
Andy Chamberlin (00:05:22):
Yeah. Not great growing conditions.
Jake Kornfeld (00:05:25):
No, certainly not.
Andy Chamberlin (00:05:26):
But you've got space here and room to expand, right? To a certain extent.
Jake Kornfeld (00:05:33):
Yeah, we're still figuring out how much farmable acreage we have, but it seems like it's somewhere between 15 and 18 acres.
Spencer Hardy (00:05:42):
I was going to say, five to 12, but depends on how you count it, and it depends on how risky we want to be with, there's a nice lower field of some really nice soil, but potentially within the 100 year floodplain, and if that's every 10 years, is that a worthwhile investment?
Andy Chamberlin (00:05:58):
Right.
Spencer Hardy (00:06:00):
Yep. Yep.
Jake Kornfeld (00:06:01):
So, five to 15, let's say. I'd like to think it's on the upper side of that.
Andy Chamberlin (00:06:08):
Depending how risky you want to be, and you haven't really turned it all over yet to see what it looks like, so...
Spencer Hardy (00:06:13):
Tucker flipped like four to six in the fall, in this upper field, that's stony, but certainly out of the floodplain, and nice and flat.
Jake Kornfeld (00:06:25):
Yeah. It's good soil and there's definitely room for us to do a lot here, but it will hit a point with five of us that we'll have to be very efficient with our space.
Andy Chamberlin (00:06:38):
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Right, right. Yeah, that's a lot. How's your business structured? Are you a cooperative, or how's that working? [inaudible 00:06:51] did you set it up, because that's really unique to have five people literally working in the same business together.
Jake Kornfeld (00:06:56):
So, we are a multi-member LLC.
Andy Chamberlin (00:06:58):
Okay.
Spencer Hardy (00:07:00):
We looked into cooperatives when we were forming, but in Vermont you need at least five members and we started with four.
Jake Kornfeld (00:07:06):
And we were advised that until you get to 12 or 13 members, you can just structure everything internally as a cooperative, and not file taxes as a cooperative, or do any of those things that require some extra hoops. So, this works well for us. We have some pretty burly operating agreements that sort of spell out the way that profit is shared, and how things are divvied up in all the worst case scenarios, and have Diggers Mirth Farm and the Intervale to thank for that, they just passed us theirs because they've been doing this successfully for 30 years, and through a lot of different ownership transitions. So, yeah.
Spencer Hardy (00:07:46):
One thing that we did that I think is kind of interesting, and I'm still debating whether or not it was the right move, but the farm existed as an LLC prior to this farm purchase, but we formed a second LLC to own the land and the farmhouse, where we are currently. And there were a bunch of reasons for that, but it allows the farm to stay small in the assets, and it's easier, it keeps the buy-in cost low for future members to join, and allows people to leave without sinking the business because if it had the property value attached to it would be a whole different calculus.
Andy Chamberlin (00:08:26):
Mm-hmm.
Jake Kornfeld (00:08:27):
And lets us sort of invest in this house and farm as a home, and think about building equity for ourselves as people who took that risk to buy the land, but also lets us run a farm business without, like Spencer said, sort of tying it to all that debt.
Andy Chamberlin (00:08:46):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense to separate that. How does having an LLC for the house work? Because the house isn't a business.
Spencer Hardy (00:08:57):
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Right. And it's caused a lot of issues with Efficiency Vermont, and current use, and all these other things that are used to houses being owned by individuals. But it's an LLC that only owns the land and the non-movable structures on the land, basically. And we decided that, that it would own the house in the barn, but greenhouses and most of the field infrastructure is owned by the farm.
Andy Chamberlin (00:09:28):
And then, the farm business leases the...
Spencer Hardy (00:09:32):
The Farm Upstream has a 25-year lease with the land holding LLC.
Andy Chamberlin (00:09:36):
Oh okay. That makes... Okay, I see.
Jake Kornfeld (00:09:41):
And over time we've sort of tiered it so that the farm will pay more rent every year, and eventually be able to cover the mortgage and property taxes and all that jazz.
Andy Chamberlin (00:09:51):
Right. Right, as things scale up, that makes sense.
Spencer Hardy (00:09:53):
Definitely confusing from a tax perspective.
Jake Kornfeld (00:09:57):
Yeah, I think hopefully after we've done this a couple of times it'll be smooth, but right now everything is a little bit of an exercise.
Andy Chamberlin (00:10:07):
You're just trying to figure out the flow of things, especially as the income starts as a slow to ramp up too. How'd you figure out how to structure this unique business this way, did you have guidance, or?
Jake Kornfeld (00:10:25):
I think we have seen a few folks do similar things. There was a collaborative farming podcast a few years ago that did a handful of episodes that were somewhat helpful. Diggers was definitely really useful, I think we worked with the Intervale Center and NOFA, and they were down to be flexible and sort of think creatively with us.
Spencer Hardy (00:10:50):
Talked to Land For Good, I think was maybe one of the original places we got the idea of the two LLCs, we also talked to Matt Croft at the Vermont Collaborative something something something something.
Jake Kornfeld (00:11:04):
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Cooperative business development sort of organization. But he was a really helpful resource. So, yeah, just talked to a lot of advisors and tried to piece it together from a mix of what do we want, what have other people done? What fits our context?
Spencer Hardy (00:11:20):
In hindsight, we probably should have talked to a tax advisor beforehand, but those are hard to find, it turns out.
Jake Kornfeld (00:11:25):
And we run into this thing over and over again, where we'll talk to a lawyer and they'll be like, I'm not a tax accountant, and then we'll talk to a tax accountant and they'll be like, well, I'm not a lawyer, and then you end up not getting an answer to your question because nobody wants to answer it because they're not sure what the answer is. So, we've just had to do it and hope that it's the right thing, and it's been okay so far.
Andy Chamberlin (00:11:48):
Yeah, yeah, figure it out as you go along, and do the best you can, that's all you can do, I suppose.
Jake Kornfeld (00:11:54):
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:11:55):
So, what crops are you growing? And let's see, so you mentioned the CSA and a few wholesale stuff, but yeah, what are the things you're trying to sell?
Jake Kornfeld (00:12:07):
Primarily, this year, it's diversified organic produce. So, sort of your garden staples, things that people will come to a roadside farm stand expecting to find, tomatoes, and cucumbers, and summer squash, and lettuce, and all that good stuff. Then there's some more interesting things happening sort of on the periphery of that, so that's, for this season, definitely the enterprise with the most anticipated revenue. And then, Spencer's got a sort of fruit enterprise that's picking up steam as the seasons go by and things start to become mature, and a native plant enterprise as well. And then, Tucker's wholesale endeavor through Bone Mountain, he talked to his buyers and said, hey, come with me to The Farm Upstream, I'm going to do a little less, but still a lot of winter squash, shallots, radicchio, things that he's done pretty successfully in the past. And so, that'll sort of complement the direct sales but also be its own cash flow.
Spencer Hardy (00:13:14):
So, my background is working in an apple orchard for several years down in the Champlain Valley, and getting excited about perennial crops there. Obviously, it's a lot longer to get started, so I've got some apples in the ground that hopefully will become the basis of an orchard in three, four years. And then, my non-farm job is [inaudible 00:13:39] pollinator conservation, and through that I've seen this need for native pollinator plants for restoration projects and for landscapers and homeowners. So, we've started a small nursery here, growing Vermont native flower and shrubs primarily, but some [inaudible 00:13:54] restoration projects, planting stock, some potted stock that'll be available through our farm stand, and trying to see what that becomes over the next couple of years.
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Andy Chamberlin (00:14:07):
Yep. You said vegetables are the thing you think is going to bring the most revenue at this point, this next year?
Jake Kornfeld (00:14:13):
Yeah, for a while, I think. It's kind of like we know how to do that pretty well, we know how the math works, and it's on an annual basis so we can scale that up more predictably, and then hopefully that creates some space for these longer-term enterprises in the native plants and the orchards to pick up steam on the periphery. And then already, Spencer got some raspberries and stuff in the ground last year, and so we offered a little fruit add-on to our CSA, and we were like, we can do 10 shares this year. And they sold out instantly, it was like a week in and everybody who bought a CSA also bought the fruit add-on. So, there's clearly interest in fresh fruits, and I don't think it's going to hit a ceiling anytime soon, so I think it's sort of a matter of how much work we can put into it, and how consistently we can get crops that are marketable.
Andy Chamberlin (00:15:17):
Yeah, yeah, it seems like there's definitely a hot market for fruit, and right in this local area, there's not a lot of it, so.
Spencer Hardy (00:15:26):
And the hope of doing it through a CSA model is that we can educate customers up front about organic fruit. And that they come into it with the expectation that it might not be the prettiest apple they've ever eaten, but it was grown without insecticides and fungicides.
Jake Kornfeld (00:15:44):
And it's going to taste really good.
Spencer Hardy (00:15:45):
And it's going to be hopefully be really good. And then it gives us a little... And having as much of a diversity of food available, we can sort of play the weather and test pressures over the years, keep it small but diverse.
Andy Chamberlin (00:15:56):
Yep, yep. You guys talked a little bit about how you got started farming, but what made you decide to do this?
Jake Kornfeld (00:16:06):
No one thing, I think Spencer and Cory and I all worked at Maple Wind Farm together and lived together in Richmond, and had talked about it very informally. And then I think we all probably have a different narrative of how this came about.
Spencer Hardy (00:16:23):
After Maple Wind I took a desk job... Or I was getting sick of my desk job, basically.
Jake Kornfeld (00:16:28):
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Spencer did a PhD for a month.
Spencer Hardy (00:16:33):
In agroecology, and quickly decided that I was more interested in the actual doing the thing than quantifying it with complicated formulas.
Jake Kornfeld (00:16:43):
And then, yeah, Spencer and Jack were like, we're going to try to buy a farm, and Cory and I were kind of like, wait up, we want to join. There was also a reality for us of what we saw as a viable farm and what we wanted to be able to farm was not within our price range, like a property like this, even after conservation and everything, I think it would've been hard to pull off with any one family unit. And so, we were able to think a lot bigger when we joined forces with Spencer and Jack, and then eventually Tucker. So, I think that's part of it, and then the other piece is a lot of what... I'll speak for myself.
(00:17:26):
What made me nervous about starting a farm, because I've thought about starting my own farm for a decade now, and it took a while to finally feel like it was the right time, and like I wanted to actually do it, and part of what helped me get there was thinking about doing it with other people, because I just don't want to be that farmer who never gets a day off the farm, who can't afford to get sick, who can't afford for anything bad to happen, that's just not my life, and not what I want my life to be. And so, to have friends who we trust to do this alongside gives us pretty awesome flexibility.
(00:18:01):
Even last summer, we were running our farm stand one day a week, but we didn't need to be there every weekend, it's like, okay, we'll set up a schedule, and Jack will be on this day, and Spencer will be on the next Saturday, and I'll be on the Saturday after that, so it's one Saturday a month that I'm giving up to stock the farm stand, instead of every day of the week.
Andy Chamberlin (00:18:18):
Yeah, that makes it much more reasonable. A little less daunting.
Jake Kornfeld (00:18:22):
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:18:24):
Still more than enough tasks everybody can complete, but at least have somebody to share it with.
Jake Kornfeld (00:18:30):
Yeah. Yeah, thinking back over the last couple of seasons, I am just blown away by people who are doing this by themselves. I went to the Veg and Berry conference and Hannah over at Boneyard Farm, her story sounded a lot like ours, but she's just, it's her and her husband and their two kids. And I'm like, holy crap, that sounds really intense. And our journey over the last couple of years has also felt pretty intense, but also people have been able to pick up slack for each other when things have been hard. So, that's maybe my favorite thing about this model so far, is just the shared risk, shared reward piece.
Andy Chamberlin (00:19:10):
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What are you excited about in this next year of farming?
Spencer Hardy (00:19:15):
I'm really excited to see how the farm stand is received by the community. We had a good reception the one day we [inaudible 00:19:22] in last fall, but hoping to build that into our main outlet. So, getting to know the neighbors in the community, and getting people to stop by on a regular basis and get excited about it, I think is what I'm optimistic will happen, and we'll see.
Jake Kornfeld (00:19:38):
Yeah. Yeah, this community has been really welcoming, Jericho and Underhill have been just awesome. There's this Jericho/Underhill food hub group that has just reached out on multiple occasions to offer us support in various ways, and the Town Conservation Reserve Fund helped pay for the purchase of the farm... Just everywhere we look around this farm, there's little reminders, the person we bought it from lives across the street, and this feels like the first season where we're in a position to really meaningfully start to offer something of value to the community, and that feels great, and is really exciting, and hopefully we've connected with people in a way that they know we're here, and they actually will show up to engage.
Andy Chamberlin (00:20:26):
What marketing strategies are you using to try to reach the neighbors and let them know you're here with veggies?
Spencer Hardy (00:20:32):
Front Porch Forum has been our go-to so far, and it's been pretty productive. We got some flyers up... We honestly haven't spent a lot of effort in the marketing yet, and I think that's something that none of us were experts in, coming into this project, and something we need to figure out. But I was just looking at getting a sign-up on the road through the town.
Andy Chamberlin (00:20:57):
That's a good idea.
Spencer Hardy (00:21:01):
$175, you got to mail the check, and you got to figure out the black signs that say, whatever, 1.2 miles that way, you got to follow their rules, but it's doable, and just got to figure out where it needs to be.
Jake Kornfeld (00:21:14):
Yeah, we're maybe a mile and a half from Route 15, and then a mile from Browns Trace Road, which also sees a lot of traffic, Browns Trce, excuse me. And I think if we can get some of that commuter traffic to stop by, that'll be the lifeblood of the farm stand at a certain point.
Spencer Hardy (00:21:35):
Last year, we just hung an open flag and that drew in a fair number of people that were walking and driving down the road.
Jake Kornfeld (00:21:40):
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Yeah. Again, that Jericho/Underhill food hub group, one of the things that they did that was awesome is they sent out a mailer to every household in those two towns, listing what farms are around, and what they have to offer. And so, we were able to get in on that, and that totally rocked. Instagram we're on, but not super consistently, and that's about the extent of it so far.
Andy Chamberlin (00:22:07):
Yeah, I think that mailer really was a nice addition, that the food hub was able to do. So, for the listeners, I'm a neighbor to The Farm Upstream here, I'm the next town over, in Underhill, and so I benefit from that food hub that, it's kind of like a bunch of, we'll say retirees that just want to support local food, and so they're just reaching out to us and trying to figure out how do we support local farms because we like agriculture in our town. And so, one of the initiatives that they did this last year, they just started a year or two ago here, and was offered this mailer, and that's something that wouldn't have necessarily crossed my mind because it'd been pretty expensive to send out a flyer, advertising ourselves, but the fact that they were able to do that and advertise the six or 12 farms that are within the region, I think was a big help because a lot of people stopped by our farm as well, and was like, hey, we saw you guys on the flyer, that's cool.
Jake Kornfeld (00:23:05):
Nice.
Andy Chamberlin (00:23:05):
And I think it caused a little bit of confusion because they were like, how do we sign up for your CSA? Well, I'm like, well, we don't have one, but reach out to these other farms, but it's still helpful to get the word out and let people know that we're around. So, I think that was good. If you could wave a magic wand, what enterprise would you want to take off?
Jake Kornfeld (00:23:31):
Take off our plate or have take off?
Andy Chamberlin (00:23:33):
Have take off? If you could really focus on the fruit, or the nursery crops, or the veg crops, is there one that you'd be like, man, I would love to see that really ramp up?
Spencer Hardy (00:23:47):
I feel like the fruit has the most room to grow, and there's a market for fruit, and I think the trick is going to be producing decent quality fruit organically and consistently.
Jake Kornfeld (00:23:59):
Half my brain wants that same thing, half my brain just really enjoys the work of growing vegetables, and just wants to do that. But I don't have a lot of experience growing fruit yet, so maybe I'll feel that way about the fruit in 10 years.
Andy Chamberlin (00:24:12):
Fair enough.
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Jake Kornfeld (00:24:13):
Yeah. I think it would be really awesome if that enterprise were to get some solid legs.
Andy Chamberlin (00:24:23):
It's a little bit of probably a question mark at this point, but what's the ten-year outlook look like or what do you envision the farm will turn into?
Jake Kornfeld (00:24:34):
I think one of the things that we come to a lot is that we want people to come to us, we aren't really interested in driving all over Chittenden County, dropping off boxes of food to restaurants and grocery stores, we'll definitely do that, because I think anybody who wants our food, we're going to work with, but we'd like to be a hub for the community, and have a bustling farm stand, and a robust CSA program, and be a place where folks come to pick up their CSA, and hang out for an hour, and their kids are playing in the yard, and that's I think a big part of the vision, is just being a space that is welcoming and attractive to people, and that can also support us. So, I think right now we're sort of set up, this year will be our first year that any of us is really going to take a meaningful owner draw from the business, and so in 10 years I'd hope that there's the opportunity, at least for all of us to be getting a full-time income from the farm.
Spencer Hardy (00:25:36):
We've talked a little bit about trying to expand the diversity of produce, of products that are offered through the farm stand, and trying to round out a diet and round out the season with being open as much as we can through the winter, and either buying in meat or raising some of our own animals so that people can do a lot of their shopping here.
Jake Kornfeld (00:25:56):
I think we'd love to have some chickens, we'd love to have a little bit of beef, but we're also wary of stretching ourselves too thin, and it seems like the trend is that people start with six enterprises and then after a couple of years they're down to one or two, and so we're trying to pace ourselves.
Spencer Hardy (00:26:14):
The beauty of having five owners/managers is that we can all sort of take our own enterprise and run with that, and have that take up our headspace, and sure, I'm going to help weed the carrots and whatnot this summer, but I don't have to think about the details of how that's going to happen, I can plug-in as needed, and use my limited brain power on fruit and the native plant nursery. And of course, talked about taking off a flower CSA or a flower enterprise, and there's future enterprises that can be spun off with owner/managers.
Andy Chamberlin (00:26:46):
Yeah. So, aside from a bit of an enterprise split, have you guys established certain roles for each of your team members, or how has that shaken down? I'm sure it's happened naturally, if it wasn't from the start.
Spencer Hardy (00:27:06):
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So, the enterprise is sort of the major split, and then the administrative part we've sort of each taken little bits that we are most excited about. Jake does all of our certifications, I've been doing the bookkeeping, Jack's been managing the CSA this winter, getting the sign-ups rolling, and then Cory has been doing our marketing.
Jake Kornfeld (00:27:26):
I'm the secretary, I'm the only one who takes notes. I think a lot of it too is still shaking out though, because bookkeeping is turning out to be a huge job, and certifications, that doesn't really take very much time. So, there's some more to be figured out, but I think it'll also evolve in time, like Spencer and Jack have a 10-month-old, and that gives them certain considerations just like they can't maybe be out in the field as much, but they can do more tagging of things in [inaudible 00:28:09]. Or not, maybe the opposite is true. I don't know.
Spencer Hardy (00:28:12):
Certainly can't do as much as we were doing a year ago.
Jake Kornfeld (00:28:14):
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:28:16):
And yeah, this season's been a trick, because you've been renovating the farmhouse too, we haven't mentioned that. So, I guess maybe if you could talk about some of those challenges that you've faced this last year, as you're trying to build a farm in addition to a homestead.
Spencer Hardy (00:28:37):
Yeah. So, it's an 1836 farmhouse that was structurally in pretty good shape, needed some updates, electrical and plumbing and all that fun stuff, and we, in the process, decided it made most sense to split it into a duplex so that we can all live here. Our [inaudible 00:28:56] doesn't really make it easy for us to build additional housing, but there's enough space in the house, we split it into a duplex, we hired a contractor to design it, and get us started, and then sometime this summer basically ran out of money, so we took over doing it ourselves. I spent more time hanging sheet rock than I actually... Or painting, and insulation, and all the house things than I did farming.
Jake Kornfeld (00:29:20):
By far.
Spencer Hardy (00:29:21):
By far. And next week, Jake and Cory are moving in, and we'll be settling into a place where the house doesn't need as much attention. There's still trim and endless projects, but hopefully this summer we can focus more on the farming.
Jake Kornfeld (00:29:39):
It was a huge hurdle, honestly, it was really hard because we constrained what we were doing on the farm, even though it felt like there was so much momentum, we didn't really come into the community quietly, I think, it was a pretty public project. It's right on a visible road, people wanted to know what
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was happening with the farm, we got public funds for it, and I think folks wanted the opportunity to see what was up, and we wanted to capitalize on that energy, and so to throttle that and focus on a longer term project was difficult. And we're not builders, we learned a lot in the last year, valuable skills, but hard-earned skills. I don't know, I got so spun out one day last summer that I just was running out of the basement and whacked my head on the threshold so hard that I gave myself a concussion.
(00:30:37):
I'm like, that's the kind of crap that you get into when you're just a little too spread thin, and I'm really glad that we're done with that phase. So excited to have a growing season where the focus is on growing food. And Tucker is really talented with a lot of the infrastructure stuff, and so he'll have the flexibility this year to help us get that stuff online. We got a really awesome Family Farmer of the Month award from NOFA, to make our farm stand a little more legit, hopefully that'll get us to four season farm stand capabilities. We're getting a prop house up right now, and have an equip grant that we'll get two tunnels up for, but TBD if that money exists anymore, so.
Andy Chamberlin (00:31:29):
It's a little bit riskier of an investment.
Jake Kornfeld (00:31:31):
Yeah, yeah. We're really kind of playing a wait and see game on that one right now, but yeah, I think trying to figure out how we were going to live here. Spencer and Jack lived in a yurt for the last year with a newborn, that is not easy. Just, yeah, very impressive and very glad that they don't have to spend half their day just managing their living situation anymore.
Andy Chamberlin (00:32:01):
You're not the only farmers that have moved into or acquired an old farmhouse needing some minor renovations like electrical and plumbing... You stripped this to the bone.
Jake Kornfeld (00:32:17):
Yeah, we kept the box. That's about it.
Andy Chamberlin (00:32:21):
Do you have any lessons learned, any advice for other people who might be tackling a housing project in addition to a farm?
Jake Kornfeld (00:32:33):
I don't know. I think maybe I would... I feel so nervous to give anybody advice on this because I don't think, I haven't done well with it.
Spencer Hardy (00:32:43):
It's going to cost twice as much as you think it's going to.
Jake Kornfeld (00:32:45):
Oh, [inaudible 00:32:46].
Page 14 of 28
Andy Chamberlin (00:32:45):
[inaudible 00:32:46].
Spencer Hardy (00:32:46):
Everyone told us that, and we said, yeah, no, we can do the work, we can help out ourselves, and we can cut the costs, and we can buy salvaged stuff, and it still cost twice as much we thought it was going to.
Jake Kornfeld (00:32:55):
Yeah. And I think lean into the things that you actually want to do and have any capability for, and pay somebody to do the stuff that really just you don't want to get into. Like, I don't mind doing the plumbing and the electrical, and so we were pretty involved in that, where we could be, and we didn't want to hang sheetrock, so we mostly got a contractor to do that for us.
Andy Chamberlin (00:33:17):
Yeah.
Jake Kornfeld (00:33:18):
So, just trying to be choosy with where we spent our money.
Andy Chamberlin (00:33:22):
Yeah, I think that was the catch, because we built our house too, and I think that was the hard part is that I had a very detailed budget, and thought through all the plans very thoroughly, and had a pretty darn good number to work from and whatnot, but then stuff just comes up that you don't expect, that costs more, and when you're planning to build your forever house, you're like, well, I'm not going to cut that corner, now is the time to do it. The walls are torn apart, if I'm going to add in this little thing here, and little thing there, and reinforce that, it's like, well, now's the time to do it, and now all of a sudden you've spent significantly more than you were hoping for.
Jake Kornfeld (00:34:06):
Yeah, that was a pretty intentional conversation we had as a group, at the outset of it, it was like, do we want to do the bare minimum and really invest in the farm, or do we want to make a house that we want to live in for the next 40 years, and slow down the farm a little bit? And I think time will also tell if that was the right decision because I think right now I'm feeling pretty excited about it, and one of the things that's really great about where we are is if the farm isn't able to support us all, we're in a populated enough area that there is opportunity for us to supplement off-farm income pretty easily. Well, hopefully. Yeah. So, I think that was the decision we came to, is that we'd rather invest in a space that'll serve us well for the next chapter of our lives, and then be able to focus on the farm And in the scheme of things, it's taken us a year and a half, and hopefully five years from now, that'll feel like a short chapter.
Andy Chamberlin (00:35:15):
Right.
Jake Kornfeld (00:35:15):
Page 15 of 28
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:35:15):
Yeah. A hard intense chapter.
Jake Kornfeld (00:35:21):
Which, I'm sure the next chapter is going to be a breeze.
Andy Chamberlin (00:35:24):
It's just different. How has the land trust, because this is a conserved property and whatnot, how has that relationship been, or agreement been, knowing that you were barely farming the first year? I'm sure they are understanding of that, but do they have certain rules that you must have a farm of a certain size, or just that you keep it in production a certain degree? I don't know.
Spencer Hardy (00:35:54):
I'll just say that this wouldn't have happened without the land trust, and they bought the development rights at the same time that we closed on the property, which was the only way that it was remotely approachable. And they've been really understanding. And as far as I know, there aren't strict guidelines about how much you have to be producing, or... But you have to keep the land in a way that it can be farmed in the future. So, they said that if we let the field go into a forest, they might come in with a [inaudible 00:36:23] and clear it for us.
Andy Chamberlin (00:36:23):
Okay.
Jake Kornfeld (00:36:27):
Yeah, the land trust puts no pressure on us at this point. They want, they're legally entitled to have a say in development on the property, so there are rules around, if we build a new barn, there's different levels of oversight depending on what it is, how we're using it, where it is. For example, if we wanted to put a pick-your-own shed at the far end of our field, which is outside of our farmstead complex, we would need their permission for that. But if we wanted to just put up another little outbuilding right next to the house, that's not a big deal. And then, in terms of production pressure, there's none. We could stop farming tomorrow and the land trust would still have a property that is agricultural soils, that was taken out of development, and that's what their goal is.
Andy Chamberlin (00:37:15):
Okay.
Spencer Hardy (00:37:16):
They do request that we not do anything agricultural within 50 feet of the edge of the river. So, we've got a decent stretch of Lee River, and we're, this spring, with the help of the conservation district, were planting a bunch of trees in the riparian buffer to fulfill that requirement that we keep it out of production and that it becomes forested.
Jake Kornfeld (00:37:41):
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Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:37:41):
Well, that's not too bad then. I had the assumption that it was a requirement that an active farm be on a land trust property or whatever, but-
Spencer Hardy (00:37:51):
There was some vetting of us as farm... We needed to have a robust business plan and some experience before they would work with us on this project, but...
Andy Chamberlin (00:37:59):
Fair enough.
Jake Kornfeld (00:38:00):
I think they wanted to trust that we weren't just trying to leverage their resources to have a nice place to live, we actually do intend to give this a go. And it's not just the land trust, right? It's like the land trust is sort of the coordinator and the money actually comes through the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board, and the USDA, and bunch of other entities, and so you also have to meet their criteria. So, for USDA, we had to show that we had three plus years of farm management experience or something like that, and VHCB really wanted to know what happened if one of us died. Which is a great question.
Andy Chamberlin (00:38:45):
Yeah.
Jake Kornfeld (00:38:47):
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:38:49):
Because you ran out of the basement too fast because you were stretched.
Jake Kornfeld (00:38:54):
Yeah, it's not off the table, I'm a high-risk character. I don't know.
Andy Chamberlin (00:39:00):
You're only building a house and a farm and working off farm too. What fulfills you in this career?
Spencer Hardy (00:39:13):
I love the endless problems there are to solve. And there's always something interesting and some new skill that you need to learn really quickly to get something done.
Jake Kornfeld (00:39:23):
Yeah, it's never boring.
Spencer Hardy (00:39:24):
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No.
Jake Kornfeld (00:39:24):
And when it is, it's really nice. When it's boring, you're like, oh, this is a great time to catch my breath. I love the relationships, I think that farming lends itself to conversation and connection that a lot of other ways you spend your time really don't. Yeah. So, building relationships with our little team of five, and our neighbors, and people we sell food to, and people we buy supplies from, and all that, it's just an awesome network to be a part of, and that's what makes it actually appealing to me, at the end of the day, is getting to connect with humans. And, also actually... No, I take that back, if the humans were not involved, I would really enjoy just being connected with the land as well. So, yeah, a lot of great connection.
Andy Chamberlin (00:40:19):
What skills have you recently acquired that you wish maybe you had coming into these projects?
Jake Kornfeld (00:40:29):
I would like to be a licensed plumber, a licensed electrician, a contractor... I think just a lot of the infrastructure skills, which are hard things to get when you don't own land, it's risk that I was fine taking on our own farm, but it's not risk that a lot of other people are down to have you take on their properties.
Spencer Hardy (00:40:51):
And then, all of the administrative stuff of bookkeeping and tax accounting, and there's a lot of that that I wasn't anticipating, that has been time-consuming and new skills to learn.
Jake Kornfeld (00:41:05):
Yeah, it almost feels like the ability to grow food is the thing that would've been easier to pick up in some ways, it's like how to run a business and how to do all the peripheral stuff is what's been challenging in the last two years.
Andy Chamberlin (00:41:24):
It's just such a steep learning curve, like you said. The growing aside, that's your baseline, that's what gets you in the door, but...
Jake Kornfeld (00:41:33):
Yeah, and that's where you want to be spending your time, right?
Andy Chamberlin (00:41:35):
Yeah. Right.
Jake Kornfeld (00:41:35):
That's why we're here, but...
Andy Chamberlin (00:41:37):
Page 18 of 28
Not in QuickBooks, and figuring out how to pay people, and receive payments, and all of that, and then the tax stuff, and then multiple LLCs, it's like, [inaudible 00:41:51].
Jake Kornfeld (00:41:51):
But that's also one of the appealing things, is we're farmers, we're also small business owners, we're also contractors of our own projects, and it is always something to learn and a fire to put out and... Well, hopefully not, but a problem to solve, which is engaging.
Andy Chamberlin (00:42:09):
After you've plumbed a bathroom all of a sudden irrigation isn't so intimidating.
Jake Kornfeld (00:42:14):
Or you realize why your irrigation keeps exploding because you did some really dumb stuff, but live and learn.
Andy Chamberlin (00:42:22):
Who's been an inspiration or a mentor or an influence for you guys?
Spencer Hardy (00:42:27):
I think the best cooperative model that we've found early on that we built our operating agreements and our understanding around was from Diggers Mirth, down in the Intervale, they were really helpful in getting us going in that direction.
Jake Kornfeld (00:42:44):
And inspiring, in that Hillary at Diggers was willing to be a formal mentor for us through the NOFA Farm Beginnings program, and shared that they can pay themselves, and they can take time when they need it, and just generally seem like happy, well-adjusted people, and that is not something that you always see in farmers. And so, that was really, I think a breath of fresh air. I don't know. I think Vermont is just chock-full of great role models and people who I've found inspiring. I listen to most episodes of your podcast, and I'm always like, that was a really valuable insight, and I got to do a NOFA soil health cohort for the last two years, and just have met a bunch of awesome growers through that, and had to gotten to have some really good frank, honest conversation with them. We have some friends, Cory and I have some friends in Michigan, who are really talented farmers, they also run a cooperative business, and they've been great mentors and role models. So, no shortage of people to look up to, which is a great place to be.
Andy Chamberlin (00:44:02):
[inaudible 00:44:02] anybody who stood out that really you've gleaned from?
Spencer Hardy (00:44:08):
Yeah, there's so many people that I've worked for or worked with and gotten to see over the years that have little bits of wisdom and are doing what we want to be doing, and doing it successfully. Windfall Orchards down in Cornwall is where I spent a lot of time, got to see the apple world, Maple Wind, of course, with their poultry and vegetable operations when we were there.
Page 19 of 28
Andy Chamberlin (00:44:35):
Yeah, they're ones who have since dropped the veggies.
Jake Kornfeld (00:44:38):
Yeah, I think we were there right at the tail end of their veggie enterprise, but they're just good people and have continued to be friends and mentors and cheerleaders as this has unfolded.
Andy Chamberlin (00:44:54):
As you are planning to scale up and ramp up the farm, what key pieces of infrastructure are you investing in, and in what order?
Spencer Hardy (00:45:06):
The prop house was our big, and the farm stand, were the two big projects for this winter/spring.
Jake Kornfeld (00:45:12):
Yeah, I feel like farm stand is number one, because that's a big piece of our business plan and our aspiration for the farm, and it needs a certain level of, it needs power, it needs a good door, it needs ventilation, it needs to be not scary to look at. So, that was sort of number one. And then, getting some kind of covered growing space, so we just put up a 21 x 96 foot ledge wood that will serve as a propagation space, but we don't need all that for propagation, so it'll be a tomato tunnel too. We got to borrow a friend's excavator in the fall, and dug a bunch of frost-free hydrants, and leveled some pads for more high tunnels, so.
Spencer Hardy (00:45:59):
There was a lot of infrastructure projects that were tangential to the house, like we put in a well, and we oversized it so that we could have irrigation from the well, we ran a bunch of hard line six feet down out into the fields, we've oversized our electrical panels, we have panels everywhere, that someday we might use for something. So, I feel like we've now just, we've got the base, we've got the land, and now we can start thinking about the farm infrastructure that we're actually going to use.
Jake Kornfeld (00:46:34):
We have a tractor coming in a week or so, which is thrilling, we've been operating with the BCS and Jack's dad gave Jack and Spencer a Farmall Super A as a wedding gift. It's awesome.
Spencer Hardy (00:46:51):
1951.
Jake Kornfeld (00:46:53):
Yeah, it's useful, but has its limits. So, we have a nice Kubota MX5200 coming from Pennsylvania next week, that'll be a game changer, I think, just the ability to move stuff around, the ability to do fieldwork. Not everybody on our team is particularly mechanically inclined, so we opted for something that is really accessible and hopefully won't spend our time constantly fixing tractors. Tucker has a nice fleet of chronically broken tractors, one of them is currently sitting permanently dead outside of the house right now.
Page 20 of 28
Andy Chamberlin (00:47:33):
Oh no. First piece of lawn art.
Jake Kornfeld (00:47:37):
Yeah, exactly.
Spencer Hardy (00:47:37):
No, the property actually came with two or three tractors already dead.
Jake Kornfeld (00:47:42):
Yeah. There's some skeletons in the woods. Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:47:45):
So, is that an open cab, hydrostatic, front-end loader kind of compact tractor? Yep.
Jake Kornfeld (00:47:51):
Exactly.
Andy Chamberlin (00:47:51):
Nice.
Jake Kornfeld (00:47:52):
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:47:54):
Seems like a pretty common piece of infrastructure for a farm like this.
Spencer Hardy (00:48:00):
The next big investment that we got to figure out at some point is how to keep the deer out of the fields. It was surprising how much of the woody perennials they decided they wanted to eat last summer. They didn't really touch the vegetables until it got cold, but they'll be back.
Jake Kornfeld (00:48:16):
Yeah. Yeah, they know we're here now, so our grace period is over.
Andy Chamberlin (00:48:20):
Especially if you're thinking fruit and native plants. They love tender little native plants.
Spencer Hardy (00:48:29):
Yep.
Andy Chamberlin (00:48:31):
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So, you guys both have a fair amount of farming experience at other locations, what was a day that just felt really successful for you, and you're like, boy, this is great, I want a farm all the time?
Spencer Hardy (00:48:46):
There's nothing that beats a September day, climbing a tree, picking apples, I could do that all day every day.
Jake Kornfeld (00:48:51):
Yeah. I think my first season managing a farm and stepping into a farm that was running a 400 member CSA, and that first day of loading up all the shares for delivery and just being like, holy crap, this worked, was really satisfying. And being like, I can do this, this is a good challenge to be a part of.
Andy Chamberlin (00:49:17):
And if you're part of a system like that, all of a sudden it doesn't seem so daunting to do it on your own either, you've seen it happen.
Jake Kornfeld (00:49:24):
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:49:26):
On the contrary, what's a time when you felt really challenged farming?
Jake Kornfeld (00:49:33):
I think as I've gotten a better picture of what it means to financially survive on a small farm, I have had some days that have felt challenging, just sort of like when things aren't going well, being like, man, how is this ever going to work? And I'm still hopeful, I think because we have good mentors, and we have people who we can look at and say, it's working for somebody, we're smart, we can figure this out. But just building spreadsheets that don't come out the way you want them to is one of the things that I'm currently finding challenging.
Spencer Hardy (00:50:14):
I tried to put together a layer enterprise this spring, having seen the price of eggs recently, and even at seven or $8 a dozen, it was hard to make that math work out well for a small flock, and it's a good reality check.
Jake Kornfeld (00:50:28):
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (00:50:30):
Here's a key question of the show, what does sustainable farming mean to you, and how are you achieving it?
Jake Kornfeld (00:50:40):
That second part is definitely a TBD for us.
Page 22 of 28
Andy Chamberlin (00:50:46):
Or how are you striving for it, I should say, maybe?
Jake Kornfeld (00:50:51):
I think it's fascinating, over time... I think getting into it, that question was all environmentally ecologically focused for me, and over time that becomes less and less of my focus. It's still maybe because I've figured out what the realities of that are, farming is a pretty high disturbance, high input, high output, kind of endeavor, and so there's ecological realities there, and we can do our best, but we're confined by the conditions that we find ourselves in. So, that's a piece of it for me, but more and more it becomes about, can this sustain me and my family and give us a livelihood that's not full of stress, and is full of the rewards that we know it can be on the good days?
(00:51:43):
Can I have health insurance? Can I afford to fix my car? Those kinds of things. So, I think that financial sustainability piece is becoming much more front of mind. And in terms of how we're striving for it, I think we're just trying to be organized, and be honest with ourselves, and check in with our values pretty frequently, and look for a lot of help from the people who know how to do it better than us. So, really grateful to farmers who give us the time of day, and business advisors who work with us, and all that.
Spencer Hardy (00:52:22):
One aspect of the native plant nursery that I'm excited about is to increase the quality or the diversity of local ecotypes that are available for agroforestry projects and for riparian buffer plantings, and for other landowners and land managers that are wanting to do the right thing by their land, whatever that might mean, and to be able to do it with locally grown native plants that aren't necessarily widely available in the state.
Andy Chamberlin (00:53:01):
What are some of those species or crops or plants?
Spencer Hardy (00:53:06):
It seems like right now willows and dogwoods are the hot ticket for riparian plantings, some agroforestry applications too. But I think there's a lot of fun upland species, oaks, and hawthorns, and things that are not... That places like the Intervale Conservation Nursery aren't really focusing on, because there's a lot of money in the riparian restoration world, but I think it seems like there's a growing demand for upland agroforestry species that are feeding livestock or providing shade for livestock, and if those can be locally sourced, native plants, all the better.
Jake Kornfeld (00:53:45):
I think one of the things that I've heard from, I just sort of hang out on the periphery of this conversation, but is that a lot of the things that people are currently sourcing and able to source are from the Midwest, in large part, and it's the same species, but they're not adapted the same. And so, they don't do as well here, and so they're not providing the same benefits to the ecosystem, and they're also not thriving as they might if they were sourced from Vermont genetics. And so, Spencer's project here is trying to scale up that offering of things that will do well because this is what they know.
Page 23 of 28
Andy Chamberlin (00:54:26):
Makes sense. I think just looping back to the sustainable farming to you, and what you're doing to achieve it, I think we talked about it, and that's kind of why you focused on almost taking a step back with the farm, focusing on the house, focusing on your place of living, working off farm and not just being like, I'm going to make a living off of selling lettuce, you're taking your time and getting your feet underneath you before you're running. Because you're playing the long game, and you have the goal of being full-time farmers and making a living off of that, but you know it's going to take time, and I think that's how you're achieving it.
Jake Kornfeld (00:55:13):
I appreciate you're synthesizing that, Andy, because it's hard to remember those things and keep that picture in mind. So, maybe I'll just pull up that sound bite on bad days. Yeah, right, right, right, it's the long game, that's what we're doing.
Andy Chamberlin (00:55:29):
You're still in it.
Jake Kornfeld (00:55:30):
Definitely.
Andy Chamberlin (00:55:32):
We're sitting here next to, what, shelves or cabinet pieces, and you haven't had that opportunity to shift your focus yet, which I think you mentioned you're looking forward to doing.
Jake Kornfeld (00:55:44):
Definitely.
Andy Chamberlin (00:55:46):
Which is great. And it takes time, and you got to focus on the chapter you're in, otherwise you'll screw up the next one.
Jake Kornfeld (00:55:57):
Yeah, I think we're all learning to maybe just be present in the current challenge, which is challenging when we want to be thinking about planting seeds, and getting things going on the farm, and remembering that actually these other chapters also have their moments of joy and interest, and that's not something that I'm particularly good at, but I would say is a skill I've gotten better at in the last year, of being like, okay, well, this is what you're doing, so find the value in it.
Andy Chamberlin (00:56:27):
Trying to find the priority, setting up... And it's hard too, because you're trying to set up a prop house, and plumb your kitchen sink, they're both very important right now.
Jake Kornfeld (00:56:37):
Right. Yeah.
Page 24 of 28
Andy Chamberlin (00:56:41):
Now is probably a difficult time, but what are ways that you like to disconnect from farming or the stress of building up your life that allows you to unwind?
Spencer Hardy (00:56:53):
It's been great this winter just to be able to throw on a pair of skis and go out, cross the field, and through the woods, and see the farm that we now, that we own, and that we get a chance to play with for a long time, hopefully.
Jake Kornfeld (00:57:07):
Yeah, I too would say skiing is wonderful. But also one of the things that was just, I don't think we expected to be able to stay in the community we've been in, when we were looking for a farm, we were kind of ready to move wherever, and Spencer and Jack had been living in Montpelier for the last few years, they had to move a bit, but their friends can still come visit. And we have a lot of community in this area, and so I think it's just really great to have friends and people who we enjoy seeing, and Spencer and Jack have a standing Friday evening pizza/taco night that you can actually put your name on a spreadsheet and get yourself a slot at the table. So, things like that really are how we, I think, recharge and get ready for more.
Andy Chamberlin (00:57:56):
Does that go year round, or is that just in the cold months?
Spencer Hardy (00:57:59):
We try and keep it going year round, we'll see how realistic that is once there's things to do in the evening.
Andy Chamberlin (00:58:03):
Yeah. Right. When the daylight gets longer, I find that's the hard part for me. I don't stop until the sun. So it's nice come December or November, it forces you to get inside.
Jake Kornfeld (00:58:15):
Definitely. One of the things, Andy, that I guess we're not going to be able to capture today, which is a bummer, we tried to pick a day when we could get more of us here, but such is life. And Spencer and I have our perspectives, but we also, we're both 31-year-old male people from the Upper Valley of Vermont, and we share a lot of identities, and so have often similar perspectives, definitely not always. But Tucker has two kids, and has been in this town for his most of his life, and Cory is also a social worker, and Jack is also a child care provider, and so I think their answers to these questions would've been really different, and it would be a very different conversation with a different set of us here. And so, it's one of the things I think I value about this, but also it's kind of a bummer that they can't participate in this conversation today.
Andy Chamberlin (00:59:13):
Yeah, fair enough. I was hoping everybody could get on board, but understand why...
Spencer Hardy (00:59:20):
Page 25 of 28
It's a rare day when all five of us are in the same room for an extended period of time.
Jake Kornfeld (00:59:23):
Or a brief period of time.
Andy Chamberlin (00:59:27):
How do you think some of their answers might have differed from yours? You guys ought to know your wives pretty well.
Jake Kornfeld (00:59:37):
You'd hope. I think Cory always leads with gratitude and community, and she's interestingly emerged as one of the more conservative voices in our endeavors, she's often the one to be like, well, hang on, can we really support that? And is that really how we need to spend our time? And I think it's a role she's taking on very begrudgingly, it's not how she wants to see herself. But she's just someone who's trying to be very thoughtful and intentional in the way we move. Whereas, I might be a little more ready to shoot from the hip, Cory's like, nope, take your time, where do we actually need to put our efforts?
Spencer Hardy (01:00:27):
I think Jack is the least connected to this part of the state, in this community, having not lived here before we moved to Jericho, and I think it'll be interesting to see... It would've been interesting to hear her perspective on how we can build this farm into a community space that is valuable for the community and fulfills our own needs and wants for social interaction, and for a deep-seated community that's supportive of us, and that we're supportive of as best we can.
Andy Chamberlin (01:01:05):
Are there particular aspects of the farm or business that they really get excited about, separate from you guys?
Jake Kornfeld (01:01:12):
Yeah, Jack is going to be our point person for CSA pickup this summer, which I'm excited to see her in that role, and I know I get antsy in those settings, I'd rather be still moving things around. And Cory really wants to grow flowers, and just really high-quality produce in a way that I don't know how to do, to be honest. She's better at it than I am. So, we'll see that evolve, which will be fun.
Spencer Hardy (01:01:49):
And Jack and I are navigating the childcare dance as we figure out our schedules for the summer, but she's excited about it all, she's excited to weave it all together, and define the spaces where there's room, and where there's other things that can be added.
Jake Kornfeld (01:02:05):
And Tucker just is unflappable as far as I can tell. He's definitely the chillest person I know, and...
Spencer Hardy (01:02:16):
He's also secretly our best marketer, in that he-
Page 26 of 28
Jake Kornfeld (01:02:20):
Knows everybody.
Spencer Hardy (01:02:20):
... confronts everybody that he knows and tells them to sign up for a CSA or else. So far it's been really successful.
Andy Chamberlin (01:02:28):
He's talked to about 40 different people.
Spencer Hardy (01:02:30):
Exactly.
Andy Chamberlin (01:02:33):
That's good. Well, he is a few years ahead he, he's been doing this, he's been selling crops for a while, so.
Spencer Hardy (01:02:38):
He's dug into this community in a way that we definitely are not yet.
Andy Chamberlin (01:02:39):
Yeah. Those were most of my questions, is there anything else that you guys want to share that I didn't bring up?
Spencer Hardy (01:02:48):
Two-factor authentication is the bane of our existence, as you can imagine.
Jake Kornfeld (01:02:55):
[inaudible 01:02:56] please figure that out, yes.
Spencer Hardy (01:02:58):
One cell phone number per account, and five people trying to access the account, in five different parts of the town.
Jake Kornfeld (01:03:07):
I've only overdrawn the bank account once, and it was because I was in Lowe's, and I just was like, I think we have the cash in there, and I could not access it because of freaking two-factor authentication, and... So lovely. But also, I think just in the spirit of this podcast, just saying again that I think we're all very grateful to be in the community that we're in, and the community of growers that we're in, because we've all learned tremendous amounts from people we've worked for, and have been peers with, and I have a hard time imagining doing this in a different setting, so I'm grateful to projects like this for existing and for people who are willing to spend their time this way, and...
Spencer Hardy (01:03:55):
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And there's so much institutional support in Vermont from nonprofits, and even from the state government, that makes this possible, whereas in a lot of states, I don't know that we could afford this, we could make it happen, we could get off the ground even.
Jake Kornfeld (01:04:12):
Yeah.
Andy Chamberlin (01:04:16):
Perfect. Well, thanks for coming on the show.
Jake Kornfeld (01:04:19):
Thank you, Andy.
Spencer Hardy (01:04:19):
Yeah, thank you.
Jake Kornfeld (01:04:19):
Appreciate you.
Andy Chamberlin (01:04:19):
And that was The Farmer's Share. I hope you enjoy this episode with Spencer and Jake from The Farm Upstream. The Farmer's Share is supported by a grant offered by the USDA Specialty Crop Block Program from the Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food, and Markets. This funding helps to cover some of my time and travel in order to produce this podcast until March of 2026. The USDA Agricultural Marketing Service supports projects that address the needs of US specialty crop growers and strengthens local and regional food systems. I have no doubt that this podcast will meet those needs and help educate growers to support the industry. If you enjoy the show and want to help support its programming, you can make a one-time or reoccurring donation on our website by visiting the Farmersshare.com/support. The show is also supported by the Ag Engineering Program of the University of Vermont Extension.
(01:05:23):
We also receive funding from the Vermont Vegetable and Berry Growers Association. The VVBGA is a non-profit organization funded in 1976, to promote the economic, environmental, and social sustainability of vegetable and berry farming in Vermont. Their membership includes over 400 farms across Vermont and beyond, as well as about 50 businesses and organizations that provide products and services of all types to their members. Benefits to members include access to the VVBGA listserv to buy, sell plants and equipment, share farming information, and tap the vast experience of our growers. Access the community accreditation for produce safety, also known as CAPS, this program is designed for growers, by growers, to help you easily meet market and regulatory food safety expectations. You can access the VVBGA's Soil Health Platform, where you can organize all the soil tests and create and store your soil amendment plans and records. Access to webinars for growers and the VVBGA annual meeting. And email subscription to the Vermont Vegetable and Berry Newsletter. Comradery, enhanced communication and fellowship among commercial growers.
(01:06:40):
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Memberships are on a per farm, per calendar year basis, and annual dues this year are $80. These funds pay for the organization's operating costs and support educational programs and research projects. These funds also support projects that address grower needs around ag engineering, high tunnel production, pest management, pollinators, produce safety, and soil health. Become a member today to be a part of and further support the veg and berry industry. You can visit TheFarmerShare.com to listen to previous interviews or see photos, videos, or links discussed from the conversation. If you don't want to miss the next episode, enter your email address on our website and you'll get a note in your inbox when the next one comes out.
(01:07:28):
The Farmer's Share has a YouTube channel with videos from several of the farm visits. We're also on Instagram, and that's where you can be reminded about the latest episode, or see photos from the visit. Lastly, if you're enjoying the show, I'd love it if you could write a review. In Apple Podcasts, just click on the show, scroll down to the bottom, and there you can leave five stars and a comment to help encourage new listeners to tune in. I'd also encourage you to share this episode with other grower friends or crew who you think would be inspiring for them. Thanks for listening.